Experience From - Chip Marz , Randi Young , Jay Hodde , Gordon Chace , Mak Sorrells , Tom Andrews , Chip Marz#2 , Chip Marz#3 , Mike Farris , Gordon Chace#2 , akabill , Vida , Karl King , Dale Perry , Dale? , Matt Kavanaugh , Brick Robbins ,
Will asks about CLIP. I'm not familiar with that particular product, but if I read him correctly, it's a powder that needs to be mixed with water. Carrying cannisters of powdered mix is not practical, obviously. I have used balloons, however, with success.
Get a balloon, fill it (using a funnel) with the premeasured amount that you will need for your size water bottle. Tie the balloon off, and you have an easy to carry container with a premeasured amount of dry powder to mix when you need it. Simply untie it and pour into the bottle, add water, shake, and voila...instant energy, right!? You can carry 6-8 of those balloons fairly easily in fanny packs. Just need a watch out you don't get stopped by police, with white powder in balloons.
Depending on how long a run you're on, you can carry as much as you need. I was able to carry about 7 balloons at the Strolling Jim 41 miler a few years back. Cantrel had water every 5 miles. I just mixed a new batch about every hour, and I was fine. On 100 milers, you may need to use drop bags. But again, it allows you to have a premeasured amount at your disposal, and not have to deal with canisters.
Years ago, I was given a Christmas gift which elicited several "now what am I going to do with THAT??" comments. I thought my mother had lost her marbles. Really - a "Seal-A-Meal" - I was certain that I'd never find a use for the little appliance.
Well - you guessed it!! It's the perfect way to package your drink powders, supplements and even dry socks! The bag material is the kind you can boil food in, so it's very tough and durable. By making small packets of drink powder and notching a corner to tear off, you'll have no difficulty pouring the powder into water bottles. (I even went so far as to use a permanent marking pen to indicate which corner had the notch, in the event of brain death...) On the supplement packets, writing the time to take them will keep you on a schedule.
After all of the use I got out of the Seal-A-Meal for ultras, I even resorted to using it for leftovers and camping food!
Kevin wrote:
"I go to the local craft store (M&J Designs) and buy small strong plastic bags that, when unzipped, the opening fits INTO the mouth of my water bottle. The powder content then just slides into my bottle"I've purchased these at a mailing store (Boxes, Etc, or something like that). I've used both 3'x4' bags as well as 4'x4' bags. The 4x4 ones work a lot better because it's easier to get the powder in the bag. I switched to hard plastic in the middle of the season and don't plan to go back to the bags.
Kevin, these bags are what I used for OD100 last year (they poured OK, didn't they).
For those who haven't yet tried Succeed(*) CLIP, it has a texture somewhat like Metabolol Endurance, ie, the powder slightly tends to stick to itself, unlike dry powders such as Cytomax or the Ultra/Amino variants of Succeed. So for mixing CLIP or Met-E during a run, wider mouths on both the water bottle and the powder container become important. I got some old medicine jars from a relative, these are very nearly as wide as an Ultimate water bottle, they hold an entire suggested dosage of 3 to 4 scoops, and I can stick the medicine jar right in the water bottle and be sure that no powder blows away.
Another tidbit, I've verified both from Karl and then in my own usage, that all three of his drink powders can dissolve at twice the nominal concentration. I've done this in road & track races with laps short enough that I could take turns sipping mouthfuls of high-strength drink at my private aid station, alternating with Dixie cups of plain water at the public aid station. Since the Succeed was twice as strong, I only had to blend up new stuff half as frequently. The same idea might be useful in trail running. In fact, it occurs to me that when carrying dual bottles, to double one bottle's mixture and keep the other as plain water, allows for emergency rinsing of skin wounds.
"CLIP has worked well for me with one exception - pouring it into water bottles to mix. Zip-Loc bags are a hit or miss solution - it's hard to transfer it quickly and get any more than half the powder in the bottle. Has anyone figured out a good way to do that, short of carrying a wide-mouth funnel?"Try film canisters. You have to pack the powder in them tight, but they empty in a sports bottle quickly and without loss. They will hold about 2 scoops
I have gone on many long runs carrying a big bag of powder in my belt pack. I use a small freezer type bag (thick so it won't tear easily.) You can pour as little or much as you like into a wide mouth water bottle in a very short time. It seals quickly and conforms to the bend of my body around my waist area. Simple and efficient and 1 of those bags in each of the 2 zippered compartments of a 1 bottle waist pack will take me a long way (50+ miles?)
I've never tried the zip lock baggies for this, so don't know, tho it sounds possible. Untying knot is a little troublesome, but not a major problem. Again, to my way of thinking, when you're carrying your own mix, it because of lack of aid stations and/or crew. I rarely participate in these kinds of events, so I don't have a lot of experience on this issue. But I have used the balloons with success, where water only was available, & I had no crew.
Andrea asks:
"That untying thing (balloon) seems to be a complication/frustration just waiting to happen.... Do you also carry a knife/scissors to snip it if you are having problems? (toenail clipper?)"I tied the balloons and left the knot SLIGHTLY loose...more like not tying it tight. Didn't really have a problem untying. I guess cutting the balloon might work, but I'm guessing you'd have problems controlling the size of the opening you'd get, and end up with the same problem as baggies...too wide a "hole," and difficult to pour into a bottle.
Try it at home or on a training run, and see if it works for you. Another consideration is the right size balloon. You don't want one that is so tough and inelastic that you can't put much powder in. Also, you don't want one that's too big, either. So experiment.
For those who have never used it, CLIP is more like flour than sugary drinks (Gator-whiz etc.) and thus is harder to pour.
I put dry Clip in snack-size ziplocks (about half the size of a sandwich bag). If I needed to mix it myself during a race, I'd whip out my little Spyderco knife, cut the corner off the bag leaving about a 1" diameter hole, and stuff it into the bottle (I use UD bottles). Smaller bottle openings would be a problem. The knife has a semi-serrated edge which tears the bags without much fuss.
Don't use these small bags if you want to pour the dry mix out normally, it doesn't work as well as with a sandwich size ziplock.
For those who haven't yet tried Succeed(*) CLIP, it has a texture somewhat like Metabolol Endurance, ie, the powder slightly tends to stick to itself, unlike dry powders such as Cytomax or the Ultra/Amino variants of Succeed. So for mixing CLIP or Met-E during a run, wider mouths on both the water bottle and the powder container become important. I got some old medicine jars from a relative, these are very nearly as wide as an Ultimate water bottle, they hold an entire suggested dosage of 3 to 4 scoops, and I can stick the medicine jar right in the water bottle and be sure that no powder blows away.
Another tidbit, I've verified both from Karl and then in my own usage, that all three of his drink powders can dissolve at twice the nominal concentration. I've done this in road&track races with laps short enough that I could take turns sipping mouthfuls of high-strength drink at my private aid station, alternating with Dixie cups of plain water at the public aid station. Since the Succeed was twice as strong, I only had to blend up new stuff half as frequently. The same idea might be useful in trail running. In fact, it occurs to me that when carrying dual bottles, to double one bottle's mixture and keep the other as plain water, allows for emergency rinsing of skin wounds.
(*) yeah, I know Karl capitalizes the whole brand-name and adds an exclam, but I just can't bring myself to shout like that on such a quiet mailing list.
Office supply stores sell rolls of 100 3"x5" and "3x6" plastics zipping type bags for $5 - $10 per roll. They are just the right size to hold 3.5 scoops of clip and when opened fit neatly into the top of a Ultimate bottle.
I may look a bit comical running into an aid station with a ultimate screw on top hanging from my pinkie, the bottle in the other hand, while I rip the plastic baggie open with my teeth but I am in and out of the station quickly and do not spill much of the precious powder on the ground.
All ziplocks are prone to opening in a belt pack so I fit two inside a larger sandwich type bag. It takes a couple of seconds longer to get at but I get at it all and do not end up with sticky fingers.
If you have ever bought Kevin's pre or post ultra packets of pills you got them in "just a bit too small" 3" x 3" bags. If Kevin ever gets serious about making money he'll sell rolls of right size baggies with his other just perfect for ultra stuff.
ON THE OTHER FOOT:
Pre-mixing Karl's clip with water a couple of days before for stashing at a drop zone or aid station is not a good idea. Clip contains protein. Protein mixed with water rots. Nuff said.Life is Good!
Wow, what an exhaustive list and no one mentioned sealable plastic? put the powder into a specialized, baggie-style sheet, seal all sides, remove remainder - you can make it as big or as little as you wish - no wasted space, the powder is tightly contained in its bag. The sealer machine used to be marketed under the name Decosonic, and I see that a smaller version of it is now marketed in late-night infomercials. The rolls of plastic are inexpensive (you can pick them up at Costco). The sealing machine too is not expensive.
It's clean, it takes little room, and you can empty the packets into the bottle by simply cutting a corner of the bag with a knife, or your teeth.
For years I've used the Nalgene 2 oz ( 62 ml ) or 4 oz ( 125 ml ) bottles for free-flowing powder such as SUCCEED! Ultra or Amino and found that solution very workable. The bottles remained sealed when being carried in a pack or drop bag. They are quick to open, easy to empty and relatively light.
The CLIP product does not flow as well as the other products and is less dense, so a better solution for it is that mentioned by Kevin Sayers: 3" by 5" "zip loc" style bags. These will hold as little as 2 scoops of powder or as much as 5. Dana Roueche said that he got 5 scoops in them for use at Hardrock ( for 26 ounce bottles ). I like 3 scoops for the 20 ounce bottle, though I used 4 scoops at Leadville for 26 ounce bottles.
3X5 "zip loc" bags are not commonly carried in stores, so perhaps Ultrafit, which carries the CLIP product, can also carry the bags.
Another possible solution is to carry a concentrate made by adding only enough water to make it pourable. At an aid station, the concentrate is added to your bottle and diluted with water from the station's table. Blake Wood successfully uses such a system for his ultras.
If the powder is dissolved with hot water, you can easily make a concentrate to pour into an Ultimate Directions gel flask.
I would not recommend leaving a normal strength solution of CLIP for more than 24 hours, especially in warm temperatures. I know that Leadville winner Steve Peterson mixed his and let it sit overnight at cool temperatures with no problem.
Mat Kavanaugh wrote:
"Will Brown wrote: "I'm amazed at the number of ways people have come up with to get powder into a bottle."I recommend that you don't even try!!! I tried mixing CLIP at Leadville this year in my UD Backpack bladder, and it was a disaster!! You have to really, really insure that the mixture gets totally mixed, otherwise the undissolved CLIP will clog your intake tube.I am too, and then another question occurred to me... what are y'all doing with CLIP or other mixes when you have to put them into GoBe, Camelback or other bladders as opposed to UD-type bottles? I would imagine that the small, nalgene bottle technique, or the camping, refillable toothpaste-type tube technique, would work better for this than baggies... What's the list wisdom on carrying sports drink mix for bladders?"
As others have mentioned, CLIP is a dense powder that doesn't readily dissolve like other powders (SUCCEED!, Cytomax, etc.) and it takes a bit of shaking to get it completely dissolved. I wasted a LOT of time at Mayqueen trying to get the stuff dissolved, then gave up, only having to stop a bit up the road and blow air back thru the tube to get rid of the undissolved globs in the tube. I probably looked like an idiot out there along the road, blowing as hard as I can into a tube making obscene noises and getting red in face.
I have since tried this technique, and it works pretty well for me:
I carry my CLIP in little baggies (or little bottles, or balloons, or ....) and just put water in the bladder. I carry a 26 oz bottle in my hand, and mix the CLIP in the bottle. When I need water, I just transfer the water from the bladder via the tube into the bottle, and shake up the bottle a bit. The motion of my arms and joshling of my body during the run mixes up the rest of the CLIP just nicely. I can transfer the CLIP to the bottle pretty easily (while walking) and the water from the bladder to the bottle moves pretty quickly as well. I've gotten it down where it takes me less than 40 seconds to do the mix.
If I want to alternate between water and CLIP, I just take a sip from the tube directly and I'm happy.
CLIP, as well as any other mix, also stains the bladder and leaves a little aftertaste that lingers for a while. I would just use the bladder to carry your water, and have a bottle handy to mix up the CLIP.
Gordon Chace wrote:
"I'm not (yet) a hydration bladder user, but I've got the UD catalog and notice they are upping the technological competition by offering a bladder called a "roll top". It's not clear to me how they achieve a good tight seal when you close it, but pretty clearly you get a wide mouth when it is open and could easily dump in full sandwich-sized baggies of powder. Capacity is something like 80 or 90 ounces. "They use Velcro to totally seal the bladder. It works remarkably well. In fact, it is hard to keep the darned thing open when filling when the roll top keeps trying to close. It hasn't leaked on me yet.
They claim 80 - 90 ounce capacity on the bladders, but it is more like 72 ounces. If you don't roll the bladder closed, you get 80 ozs.
I guess it's a marketing ploy.
Gordon Chace wrote:
"with CLIP or other mixes when you have to put them into GoBe, Camelback or other bladders as opposed to UD-type bottles? I would imagine that the small, nalgene bottle technique, or the camping, refillable toothpaste-type tube technique, would work better for this than baggies... What's the listI have the UD catalog, and already own more of their products, and Camelback's, than I care to admit. Unfortunately, none of the bladders are the roll-top type. I have seen that advertised and agree, it looks like an improvement over the older style with the small opening. In fact, the new bladder style may be easier to pour powdered mix into than the UD water bottles, although you still have the hassle of taking out and replacing the bladder in the back or waist pack to refill.I'm not (yet) a hydration bladder user, but I've got the UD catalog and notice they are upping the technological competition by offering a bladder called a "roll top". It's not clear to me how they achieve a good tight seal when you close it, but pretty clearly you get a wide mouth when it is open and could easily dump in full sandwich-sized baggies of powder. Capacity is something like 80 or 90 ounces.
Also, UD makes a monster bottle - 54 ounces - using the same screw-top fitting as their more conventional 20 and 26 ounce bottles. And they offer an alternate screw-top lid which replaces the nipple with a suction tube. So this bottle can be drunk from either in-hand or on-back and allows the same ease or difficulty of powder loading as their bottles. At least one of UD's packpacks include this monster bottle and suction tube to compete against the smaller (50 to 60 ounce) hydration systems from other brands.
If you want to get the UD catalog, email h2opack@aol.com and give them your snail-mail address. They sent mine within 2 weeks or so. There are quite a few product variants besides what you see advertised in UR magazine or on the shelf at outdoors-equip stores."
My $0.02 on roll top UD bladders. I had horrible luck with mine, especially after mixing powders. I found that little crystals of the powder kept the rolltop from sealing properly, and the fluid leaked out the top. I found out in the middle of a long run - I had a sticky back for 4 hours.